Message Board

Welcome

Welcome to the Comic Book Manifesto Message Board. I hope many of you leave comments, and discuss my plan. Do you think it will work? Why or why not? How can you help?

I Like It!

This would get me buying again. What stopped me from collecting years ago was massive crossovers and intersecting stories. Not that I didn’t enjoy the stories but buying 10 to 20 extra books a month that had a small cross-part of the main story I was reading was getting too expensive. Just collecting Wolverine and Punisher and their crossovers was a $200 a month habit at times. I would buy the 500 page, $5 books too and then go get the $3.99 individuals I wanted to collect.

Great idea! I hope you get some attention to it.

Nolan
 

I sent the Manifesto to Dark Horse and Marvel

I have sent a copy of the Comic Book Manifesto to Dark Horse Comics and Marvel. My note to Dark Horse included a thank you note for keeping their standard price at $2.99 even though the "big two" have shot their prices up to $3.99.

I'm still looking for a good mailing address for DC.

Hey, if anyone happens across this site while at San Diego ComicCon, please talk it up. The site's only been up about a week, and I'm not exactly in the industry. I need some agitators...

We're on Aint It Cool News' Shoot the Messenger

The Comic Book Manifesto is on Aint it Cool News' Shoot the Messenger for August 17, 2009.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/42075

I hope enough people get on board with this plan to make it happen. I hope someone with some pull with a major publisher reads it and comprehends how much more money they could be making...

I agree with your article

I have been reading/collecting/trading/selling comic books off and on since 1970.  I was 5 years at the time I first read comic books.  I learned alot of vocabulary words at an early age reading comic books.  I think comic book art and stories have keep up with current events too.  Unfortunately, with the price at 3.99 it makes it difficult to be able to read everything.  If I waited for everything to read at a reasonable price, I would miss key issues in the storylines.

I agree with the steep costs of a comic book.  I would be happy to read it on the same paper it was on in the 1970's.  I think lowering the quality of paper and adding stories(reprints or backstock stories)would help a new reader get excited and look for the back issues too. I have always liked crossovers but with how often an epic storyline comes around its hard to get the crossovers.  Maybe for example show a superman story from the other decades so a reader can compare the art and story of other decades.

I think DC is on the right track with having backup stories.  It gives a new or old reader a sample of maybe a miniseries or ongoing with the right writer and artist. I also think that the weekly comics idea is good too.  I think Marvel having series like Agents of Atlas, Guardians of the Galaxy and Nova are showing that bringing back ideas from other decades can work.

Thank you and I welcome other comments and replies

mikeysgal224@startouch.net

Thanks Mikey

Thanks for your comments, Mikey! 

Great manifesto.‏

I just read your piece. I forget how I got there, I've had it loaded on my iPhone for at least a week and just now. I think maybe you mentioned it on a forum at newsarama or comicbookresource. Whatever, it's a good piece.

Do you know if any of the publishers have read this? I'd be interested to see what kind if reaction ut gets from them. You're absolutely right with this approach. I read about ten titles a month and the expense of it is getting crazy. I have boxes of old comics downstairs that will never be sold and yet I can't push myself to throw them away because I know how much money's gone into the collection. A larger and cheaper alternative that ultimately is more is easily dispensible is what we need.

RE: Great manifesto.‏

Thank you Chris.

I did send a copy of my manifesto with a cover letter to Marvel, DC, and Dark Horse. My letter to Dark Horse included a thank you for keeping their prices at $2.99. I tried to emphasize that I wasn't just whining about money I was volunteering to spend, or accusing them of profiting too much, which is absurd, but rather trying to show them a way to make a lot more profit by offering a better value. But, I think they get multi-page diatribes 100 at a time. If any of them read it, they haven't responded.

Mostly, I sent it to them as a courtesy. I don't think anyone in publishing will seriously consider my idea without a popular uprising of sorts. It IS in their best interest, but it would also be very difficult to implement. With the recession, now would be a great time from the point of view of fans demanding value for their dollar. But, with the recession, now might be a difficult time to get tons of advertisers to try something new. But, if people were talking about this all the time at conventions and on message boards, they'd have to look at it. And if they look at it seriously, I think it could work for them and us.

Now, about those boxes of comics. What you need is cheap, big-box-store shelving. You know, fake wood, 25 bucks a pop. With bags and boards, comics will sit on those shelves perfectly. They look better than they do in long boxes, and they are much more accessible. The boxes you can collapse and store, and bring them out only when you move.

Encouraging Advertisers

One of my favorite things is Library of America books. They are a non-profit publisher dedicated to keeping our cultural treasures in archival editions. I love these books. Acid-free paper, so I can give them to my great-grandkids... Sewn bindings, so they lie flat... Ribbon markers... Comfortable Typography... Collectible... Bliss.

Anyway, LOA has recently come out with a volume of Lovecraft, a Fantasy anthology, and a half-dozen noir crime novels. I believe that comic book readers, because they are literate, understand the value of a nice book, and are into these topics, would make a perfect audience for some targeted advertising. In particular, because of the noir/pulp/Lovecraft connections, I believe LOA would see some serious ROI by partnering with Dark Horse Comics.

I told them as much in a discussion board on LOA's Facebook site. I don't know if anything will ever come of it, but you never know.

Comic book readers would be much better off if more companies were competing for ad space from comic book publishers. If enough advertising were available, the publishers would be motivated by ad dollars to lower the price to increase the audience. Comic books need to be affordable again.

LOA, obviously, can't drive the price of comics down on their own. But there are hundreds of companies out there just like them, with products that are a perfect match for the right comic company. We need to actively play match-maker if we want to see ad space in comics become a hot commodity.

Denis Kitchen's take on the Comic Book Manifesto

Below is Denis Kitchen's take on the Comic Book Manifesto. For those of you who don't recognize the name, Denis is the guy behind Kitchen Sink Press (1969-1999), the founder of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, and he's in charge of Will Eisner's legacy, among other things. http://www.deniskitchen.com/

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Hi Nolan---

I just read your friend Clay’s “Comic Book Manifesto.” I enjoyed it. It’s good to see a serious comics fan attempting to solve the “pamphlet problem” (too-thin-and-overpriced) with a radical business model. Other than Clay seems fixated on 500 pages, which is way too thick even by magazine standards, his basic reasoning would appear to be sound. But for a variety of reasons I doubt that an ad-based magazine model will ever be fulfilled. First of all, you can assume that others have given consideration to this concept, even if they haven’t done so as a public manifesto. After all, DC Comics is owned by Time-Warner and their comics already contain [too much] advertising. And it was just announced today that Disney bought Marvel, so you better believe that the evil marketing geniuses employed by Disney will be examining their new comics company from every angle. DC in particular has probably considered a magazine (not 500 pages) and you can be sure a young exec or two had discussions with ad execs and newsstand distributors more than once and they mutually concluded it was not practical.

Consider also that magazines in general ---like newspapers--- are not a growth industry and ad sales are down everywhere. So right now is the worst possible time for an ad-based model to be seriously considered. My own view is that if the problem of expensive/thin comic books is to be resolved it will be solved online, not with a manufactured product, where far less advertising revenue is needed to support a far less expensive vehicle.

But I’m delighted to see the business side of comics addressed in a serious manner.

---Denis

PS--- Speaking of expensive manufactured products, consider picking up my new coffee table book, The Art of Harvey Kurtzman (Abrams). Only about $23 from Amazon, which breaks down to about five bucks a pound. And no advertising! ;-)

My take on Denis Kitchen's take on the Manifesto

I am pleased as punch to hear from Denis. It's really cool to get his insight.

Denis knows what he's talking about, and I'm sure he's right. Getting this done would take a miracle. But I'd like to make a couple of points.

1) I'm not married to 500 pages. I pulled that number out of thin air. Diamond's Previews is around 400 pages, and it's about the size and print quality that I think is needed here. 100 pages might even be enough... maybe... but remember, the goal is to get the price per page low enough that you wouldn't have to be a collector to think it's a good deal. It has to be low enough that age-appropriate books could be given to children to destroy, low enough for the Post Office to abuse them without complaint, low enough for people to see a crinkled and beat-up copy on a newstand and still want to buy it because of it's sheer entertainment value. 500 pages would overwhelm that standard, but 100 pages might meet it. Even 24 pages for $1.28 might meet the goal.

2) Print Newspapers are dying because the content works so much better on the Internet. Not so with comics. I've tried reading comics on screen before, and it's no fun. Okay, it's kinda fun, but it's at least 40% less fun. I'd hate to see the day when paper comics die.

3) If I'm right, evil marketing geniuses are exactly what we need, as long as they aren't short sighted. If I'm right that focusing on entertainment value instead of collectibility will grow the audience exponentially, making it very profitable to sell ad space, then I'm relying on "greedy" execs to see the potential of making my dream come true. Greed is good when it's pursued by making customers and business partners happy. God Bless America.

4) But, yeah, it's radical. It would cost a lot of money to try it. It might fail. Maybe someones already thought of it. It requires a massive change in thinking by companies with billions of dollars invested. It would take a miracle. But, I would like to see it seriously considered. I'd like someone to do the math.

Does anyone have any ideas about ways around the serious problems we face?

Retraction/Correction/Good News

For the past several months, my new comic buy list has been down to only Hellboy and B.P.R.D., because I love those books and Dark Horse sells them for $2.99. (I think $2.99 is too steep for most people, and that's one reason there are so few collectors. But I'm a collector, and I can swing $2.99 for a few books a month. Not $3.99, though, that makes me feel ill to think about.)

Anyway, the Good News for me is I found out this weekend that Grant Morrison's "Batman and Robin" title is still $2.99, and so is "Red Robin". These two books were on my pull list before, and I cancelled them because I mistakenly believed ALL DC books to be $3.99. (All the other DC books I used to buy are $3.99.) I caught up on back issues this weekend, and I'm glad to have these two titles back on my pull list.

Ain't it cool news says $3.99 top 10 bad things

Go here and scroll to the bottom: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43548

I couldn't agree more.

Comic Book Resources Article Brings Me Hope

Read it here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=24545

Erik Larson, creator of The Savage Dragon, co-founder of Image Comics, and an able comic illustrator has written an article proposing his solution to "The Pamphlet Problem." I'm so glad there are voices inside the industry that are calling for changes that would expand the comics audience beyond the limited circle of those who believe their comics will be worth thousands of dollars one day. Thanks, Erik.

Marvel Comics on the IPad

I can imagine myself curling up with an IPad and the Marvel App and reading comics. The idea appeals to me much more than trying to read comics on my desktop computer or trying to use my laptop.

How much would I be willing to pay? Well, if the experience was almost as good as reading a real comic book... But I don't get to see it on my shelf... no sense of ownership... no tactile feeling/smelling the paper... no hope that it would ever be collectible...

On the other hand, right now I'm priced out of being able to purchase most new comics. I can only afford used trade paperbacks. I'd love to be able to read new comics while they're new.

Marvel subscriptions are 50% off retail. They arrive having been abused  by the Post Office, so collectibility is out, but the price is just about right. $1.99 is still a little steep for a book that isn't collectible.

I'd say, for a digital new comic, I'd be willing to pay about $.99. (If I had an IPad.) That would be enough entertainment value for my dollar, and I'm getting absolutely nothing else besides the entertainment value. $.99 would be a little steep for me, considering there's nothing physical, just an experience. But I'd pay it for some titles.

After I decided that $.99 would be about the right price for me, I checked Marvel's web site to see what they are selling them for: $1.99. WHAT??? These guys consistently are able to figure out what a good value is, and then double it. For $1.99, I'd much rather have the beat-up subscription copies. And I wouldn't have to pay $500 for the IPad.

On the plus side, Marvel is providing 500 free comics (their choice) with the Marvel App. Apparently, it's a lot of #1 issues to get people hooked. Still, that's pretty cool.

I'm hoping that Marvel will sell packages where the price is much lower than $1.99. Like, all-you-can-eat for $19.95/month or something. I could go for that.

An alternative plan

Yeah, I know no good manifesto has a Plan "B", but...

Rolling Stone magazine has a cover price of $4.99. It's 75 pages. On the newstand, $4.99. People buy it. But, here's the kicker, I only paid $2 for a full year's subscrition. I think it comes out twice a month. That's like ten cents an issue. I made some sort of qualifying purchase on Amazon.com, and they said, "Wanna subscribe to Rolling Stone for $2" and I clicked yes without a second thought. I even forgot that I had done it. The magazines started arriving a few weeks later and I was like "What's this?" I didn't remember subscribing until Amazon offered another cheap subscription a little later. Some thoughts:

• The price was so low I didn't think about it. Talk about entertainment value!
• The newstand price is fair for a 75 page magazine, but I wouldn't normally buy it
• Because the offer was made by Amazon, they know everything about me. Pre-qualified advertising.
• When I read the magazine, I learn about music. Sometimes things end up on my wish list. They'd be in my basket if I had some spare scratch. Are music labels subsidizing this?
• I read most of it. I at least look at every page.

I love it when advertisers subsidize my entertainment.

My subsription to Wired is similar. Cover price is about $6 an issue, but my 1 year subscription is $12. These are thick, nice magazines. I've been subscribing a few years, and I don't remember where the solicitation came from. Probably a result of my subscription to Reason. Anyway, the model is the same: expensive newstand price (and a little hard to find at a supermarket) yet the subscription price is 80-95% off.

My message to comic book companies is: DO THIS!!! If subscriptions to comics were 80-95% off, I'd buy tons of them. I'd be able to keep up on current comic book happenings, I'd get a lot of entertainment value for my dollar, they'd get a predictable and knowable subscriber base, and it would be cheap enough that I wouldn't mind the Post Office destroying them.

I saw a PSA in this month's Rolling Stone from the magazine industry. It says that, since the advent of Google, magazine readership has actually grown. This leads me to believe that the comic industry's excuse that print is dying or advertising-based print is dying is misguided. Newspapers are dying. Magazines are not dying. Comics are more magazine like than newspaper like. If they would tweak their business model and try a little harder, they wouldn't have to make us pay through the nose and their readership would soar. If comics were a good value, readership would rise instead of fall in a recession.

I just subscribed to Amazing Spider-man via Marvel

I just went to Marvel.com and subsribed to Amazing Spider-man. I know that these comics will arrive creased and bent, and will thus be considered "Good" at best, and not "Near Mint". But, I don't really buy comics with dreams that they will be worth a lot of money one day. That never works out. For every comic I have worth 10x what I paid for it, I have a hundred that are worth half of what I paid. So, I'm not shopping for collectibility, I'm shopping for entertainment value. And, subscribing to ASM is a great value. You get 36 issues for $49.97, which puts the price per issue at $1.39. This is really close to the inflation adjusted newstand price from my middle school years.

I actually did subscribe to ASM in middle and high school as well. My subscription started when Peter got his red and blue costume back (#259). It lapsed by accident around the time he married MJ. (I did get the wedding annual, though). Then came Todd McFarlane's run, through #328. After that, I only wanted to read DC/Vertigo books for a few years. Good times.

Anyway, I think subscribing is a good way to communicate to Marvel that entertainment value trumps collectibility. Subscriptions are always much less than newstand prices in the magazine industry. Also, now they know my birthday, so they can sell demographic info to advertisers. And, I'm committed for one year (ASM is three times a month now) so they have a baseline readership for ad buyers. Comics need to be ad-driven.

On the Marvel site, the $3.99 and $2.99 books all have the same subscription price. http://subscriptions.marvel.com/ is the link. $25 for your first 12 issue subscription, and $23 for additional subscriptions. ASM is a special deal with a lower price per issue, because of it's thrice a month schedule and flagship status.

I'll probably add some more subscriptions in a couple of months. I've blown way past my comics budget for the month with this $50 purchase. It's a good deal, though. 

How to spend my comic buck

 I ran across your site by googling "why are comics so expensive".  I got back into comics about a year ago after a nearly 20 year absence.  As a kid, I was heavily into comics from about 1984 to 1990 and then just returned last year.

In that last year, I've really started to enjoy comics again.  But, within the last few weeks, the cost has really started to get to me.  I had decided that my budget was 4 comics per week.  But, that still adds up to $15+ per week.  For something that takes usually less than an hour to read.

It's becoming harder to justify that.  If I buy a book for $10, it gives me at least 5 or 6 hours of fun.  Even a $60 video game gives me 30-40 or more hours of fun.  But, $15 for less than an hour.

Recently I'd bought a 5-pound brick of comics at my local comic store.  It turned out to be 40 comics for $7.  Of course, it was a random collection of issues from the last 25 years.  But, I kind of realized that it was still fun to just read those comics and not sweat that I just paid $3 or $4 for it.

So, now I'm rethinking my whole comics strategy.  I want to keep buying them and want to support the medium.  But, $2.99 or $3.99 is just not worth it.  So, I'm thinking that heavily discounted "bricks" of comics and reduced price trades at my local comic book store might be the way to go.  I still enjoy the medium.  I'm still supporting my local comic book store.  But, I'm not feeling like a sucker for spending $3.99 on a 10 minute experience.

Now, if you're idea were to come into reality, I would be all over it.  I'd buy a ton of comics.  Same with the heavily discounted subscriptions.  If comics were a good value, I'd happily spend $50 a month on them.  If I could spend $1 per issue, that's 50 comics and well worth it.  As it is, $50 gets me about 15 comics.  That's a much harder to sell.

Love your manifesto and keep spreading the word.

Cheap Comics

First off, I'd like to thank RJP for his input and encouragement. It's good to hear about the return of a prodigal comics fan.

Strategies that are working for me:

• Amazon Marketplace used trade paperbacks. Read the price and add $3 or $4 shipping - there are a lot of good deals there.
• My local used bookstore has a great used trade paperbacks section. I'm talking about McKays in Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga here locally. Anyway, it has to be a used bookstore that focuses on being cheap instead of on signed first editions of 19th century novels. Prices at McKays are 50% off cover. Trades are usually cheaper per issue than new comics, so combined with 50% off it's usually a good deal.
• Some comic book stores have used trades as well.
• The fifty cent bins at comic stores have never worked for me. I tend to enjoy multi-part stories and longer runs of comics. Fifty cent bins are always filled with strays.
• You can subscribe to Marvel comics. They arrive in rough shape, but they are 47% - 52% off. Amazing Spider-man is 65% off, and I subscribe to that.
• Subscribe to Mile High Comics' newsletter. Their base prices seem high to me, but they have great sales via the newsletter. You have to order enough to get free shipping. The newsletter is entertaining, and you learn tons about running a business, cash flow, and promotion techniques. I hope to meet Chuck at a conference some day.
• I subscribe to the newsletter of a semi-local comic store as well. They had a 50% off all back issues sale right after my birthday last year, and I stocked up. It's all about finding a good deal and striking while the iron is hot. I feel a little like Coupon Mom right now.

There are a few books that I am willing to shell out $2.99 a month for. But not $3.99. I have my limits. For me, Hellboy, B.P.R.D. and Batman and Robin makes the cut.

Marvel Digital Comics vs. Marvel on the iPad

I wrote a little while ago that it seems like Marvel's iPad plan is to sell comics for $1.99. Plus you get 500 free ones (of their choice) with the iPad reader app.

Well, I was looking on their site tonight, and they have digital comics for the PC. Apparently it's more of a rental than a download, but you get access to a library of 5000 comics, and the library is constantly growing, for a little less than $5 a month if you subscribe for a year.

I'm not remotely interested in reading comics on my laptop or desktop, but if this price model carried over to the iPad, I'd be all for it. Especially IF they could raise production enough to get all 2000 pages they publish every month scanned in a timely fashion - that would be incredible. Incredible.

I'd still rather have them in 500 page, cheap-paper, advertiser-driven format as stated in my manifesto, but this iPad thing might have legs.

Superman, Batman, Spiderman...an nothing else new?

So you love comics. 
 

The epic stories.

The Wonderful Characters.

But I get tired of reading stories about Superheroes who were old when my grandfather was a kid... an he's dead.  

SuperMan, Batman, an all of those 1940 brand Heroes from DC. 

Spiderman, Hulk, Ironman, and those other Movie based Superheroes that happen to be comics from the 1960. 

Even more modern titles from indies are become trapped in that continuum forward warp.  I don't know any of them because there indies an are on the caliber of Marvel or DC.  So they're not worth mentioning.

The new Milleniuum was no more different in Characters that the 1940's or 1960's because the 2000's feature those same characters.  An for thoughs who wanna sight team titles,  trades, graphics, and other one-shots.

Your grandfather as a kid was amazed by Superman & Spiderman because of how new they were and the adventures they went on.  You grandkids will also be amazed by that same factor. But it doesn't bring you both together in any way.  You granddad, and you grandson  should have that in common, but they don't really.

Just having new heroes that close the door on a superhero of the past would be refreshing.  But as Hal Jordan proved, you can't keep a hero turned villian that was killed turned into a avenging ghost, and replaced by 4 different characters do. (If you don't have readers that can get used to the new superhero for long enough without the old ones demanding the return of their childhood avengers)

BGray makes an excellent point

I'm a comic book nerd, so obviously I like what I'm reading. I like the old characters. But, if comics are ever going to take off as a mainstream art form in this country, people will need to start seeing them apart from the super-hero genre. And if comics are ever going to appeal to all Americans of all ages, they can't only publish the tried and true heroes of the Silver Age.

My solution? Stop trying to publish collectibles, and start trying to publish affordable content. The audience broadens, then the content has room to broaden. We all win.

On another note... I'd like to keep this forum family friendly and professional. I have something serious I'd like to discuss with everyone involved, so I'd like the conversation to have some decorum. I edited one of the previous posts for content. I apologize for not being more clear about the tone I would like to see on the front end. Thanks.